Folklore Roundtable
In our first musical roundtable, Erin Pattie hosts Dagny, Eunice, and Camille in a discussion about Taylor Swift’s new album folklore, favorite tracks, a surprising change they would make, and whether or not Taylor could’ve made this album without making her others.
Erin: Okay so it's July 23rd you find out Taylor Swift is going to drop an album, you haven't heard it yet, what are you thinking?
Eunice: I was kind of still busy with One Direction things, cause like the same day Taylor Swift released her notification of her new album dropping I was still going through my old One Direction photos and listening to all their songs. I was just excited to really focus on that, I wasn’t really looking at other things and One Direction throwback things flooded my feed. But then the next day I started listening to it.
Erin: Wait follow up question, are you one of those people that subscribes to the theory that Taylor Swift announced it that day on purpose.
Eunice: Oh I don’t know! Is that a theory?
Erin: It’s a theory like- it’s a little bit of a sexist theory because it assumes that she’s still bitter at Harry Styles or something but I thought it was interesting because people were saying she could’ve just dropped the album without any precursor on that day? I don’t know.
Eunice: Maybe it’s just- Did she know it was One Direction’s anniversary?
Erin: Like, probably not.
Dagny: Anniversary of what? I didn’t understand that day.
Eunice: Ten years ago, on July 23rd, they got together on X Factor. So their band started on that day.
Dagny: The birth of 1D. What did you think about this release Erin?
Erin: You know I was at first I wasn't sure because I wasn't a huge fan. I think I was sort of in the minority of people that found reputation really interesting and I really liked it. A lot of my friends who are like actual Taylor Swift fans weren’t fans. So I kind of wasn’t sure what to make of it because I didn’t love her last album. But, I saw the cover art, I'm such a cover art person, I think because I’m a design major and so I was like “this looks different for her.” And I saw all the memes online of people saying it was the gayest album cover they’d ever seen which was kind of humorous. So I think a lot of the jokes online are kind of what sucked me into caring about the Taylor Swift release. And then the next morning- it dropped at midnight and I saw people listening to it on Spotify but I didn’t listen to it until the next morning. But I would say I was curious, but I went not with low expectations but sort of with no expectations
Dagny: Love that, I'm on the same page with you in that.
Erin: What were you thinking?
Dagny: I actually, coincidentally, started being a little more interested in her during quarantine because my brother and I were randomly watching this special on Apple TV, the “Taylor Swift City of Lover Concert”, so I watched that and was really into it. And that’s where I also discovered a little bit more of her potential, obviously the entire world loves her so I wasn’t the end all be all of whether or not Taylor Swift had potential. But I watched this live of “The Archer” and that really resonated with me so I think that’s why when I heard about this I was eager to see what’s going on.
Eunice: I love The Archer it’s such a pretty song
Erin: I like the slow build.
Eunice: Yeah, I feel like I prefer more of her slow songs, less poppy and more back to when she first started making music. I think I prefer that.
Dagny: I totally agree. It’s kind of an internal battle to be had because you would never want to feel like you’re putting an artist in their place. Everyone should have their thing like if pop makes her happy, and clearly a lot of people like it, but when I hear this album I feel like this is the music she was meant to make.
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Erin: I know you’ve said that and a lot of the reviews have said that this is the album she was meant to make, which I agree with. But, I’m curious, do you think she could’ve made this album without making all the past albums? Like did this have to be her eighth album? Did she have to go through every other genre to get to this point or do you think she was making stuff like this from the beginning but she was being kind of held back or “put in her place” like you said?
Eunice: Didn’t she post something about how since quarantine this is what she’s been making for fun and she wasn’t sure if she was going to release it? Let me check. (she pulls up the original instagram post) Yeah, “in isolation my imagination has run wild and this album is the result. A collection of songs and stories that flowed like a stream of consciousness...Most of the things I planned this summer didn’t end up happening but there is something that I hadn’t planned on that did happen.” So I think definitely quarantine played a big part in her releasing this. I don’t know about in relation to her other albums but I guess since she’s in isolation she’s alone with her thoughts and that’s what spurred this new genre. Because it’s very eerie and ethereal.
Dagny: I think maybe the answer is that she wouldn’t have been able to write this without everything else. At the same time I think, not like I know her on a personal level, but she’d have a lot of energy pent up from being in the world she’s in. So I don’t think she’d be able to get to this place where she’s more thoughtful and maybe secure in her emotions and vulnerable without this release of energy the previous albums served as.
Erin: I sort of feel like no, I feel like many things had to come together. Kind of like Eunice touched on, if she hadn’t been in quarantine alone with her thoughts who knows if she even would’ve made this. She may have just made Lover pt. 2 or something completely different or who knows. Maybe she would’ve made another country album, we don’t know. And maybe it was sort of a nice release and then she gets to not be in the public eye. No one cared about any celebrity for like at least two months in there, so maybe it was a nice reset. But no I don’t think she could’ve made this album if she hadn’t made every other album. I like her, I think she’s a talented person, but sometimes you have to make a certain amount of work to make something really good, because then you have things to compare it to. If that was her first album I don’t know if it would’ve been… it would’ve just been an indie album. It wouldn't have been this huge momentous thing.
Dagny: I thought the same because I think it’s strange there’s obviously been tons of these smaller indie artists coming out with similar music this summer and- I love this album a lot, more than I thought I would, but in my head I’m like “is it that special?” I can’t really figure it out if it’s just Taylor Swift being different and we’re all like “this is awesome and exciting.”
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Erin: Did you guys hear the Phoebe Bridgers album that came out this summer? It’s called Punisher, it’s very good, and I remember there was a lot of comparison [between Bridgers and Swift.] And these are very similar albums in a way, and obviously she’s Taylor Swift she’s gonna get a lot of press. But it is sort of similar to other indie albums, there are many albums of this energy. There is something to the unexpected though, the critics were like “holy shit Taylor Swift made an indie album?” And it’s exciting for music journalists to write about that because they get to delve into everything instead of just writing about another Taylor Swift album.
Dagny: I think something that she does have going for her that sets her apart and that might be a more genuine reason everyone loves this album, is her storytelling abilities. That made me really excited to listen to this album because I knew that it would be a story. I knew I would start on track one and it would be a really comprehensive vision of something. And I think the way she presents that makes her stand out from artists in every genre. In the indie world I’ve felt like a lot of bands have had trouble creating clear storylines with their albums.
Eunice: I agree, I feel like it reminds me of one of her older songs called “She Said,” the entire song is just a story about this couple that meant when they were five and as they grew up started falling in love with each other. It’s like her other songs that just tell a love story. When I was listening to her songs it’s just a very immersive experience and it takes it back to the older times. It's a really nostalgic feeling and that makes her stand out too, being immersed in her story. Especially since we grew up listening to Taylor Swift, or at least I did, that brought me back to that experience. I think that’s also what made these songs really popular.
Camille: I think that has to be one of my favorite parts of the entire album, the storytelling aspect. It’s really nice to see what her mind was up to and how the story pans out. The love triangle I was reading about.
Dagny: What’s the love triangle? Maybe I wasn’t with the storytelling after-all
Camille: They said there’s a love triangle between Betty, Inez, and James, and it was told through the songs “Betty,” “August,” and I think “Cardigan.” They all go together and I had to keep relistening to those songs to figure it out.
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Erin: I got too caught up in the internet theories about “Betty.” I sent screenshots of my readings. Do you have a standout favorite track you’ve been going back to the most?
Eunice: Definitely “exile.” I love that song, it meshes so well with Bon Iver’s voice. The lyric video is so pretty. It just reminds me of her older songs, and it tells a story.
Dagny: I agree that song is really great. I have to say, another thing I think made me excited about this album was that I skipped to that track thinking it was going to be the undebatable best because I don’t know Bon Iver? But a song that I’m obsessed with is “Peace.” During quarantine I have this bad habit where I become really fixated on the lyrics of songs. Like if I’m listening to a song I thought I liked before quarantine, if the lyrics don’t resonate with me I just can’t listen to it anymore. Something about this song resonated with me so much in regard to my past relationships, I’ve felt that message of “I can give you all the love I have, I’ll probably keep things interesting, but I can never give you ‘peace’.” I struggle with pretty bad anxiety and at times that in combo with baggage from my past has made me feel like a burden on people I’ve been with. I’m always trying so hard to give that person ‘peace’ but I really like that song because maybe it’s just accepting, and finding someone else who accepts, that you’re never gonna give them that completely lighthearted version of yourself that you may want to.
Erin: Yeah, just because you can’t make them totally zen all the time, doesn’t mean you can’t make them happy.
Camille: I keep going back to “the 1,” I really love the lyrics. The lyrics combined with how she sings it. She’s also telling a story there and it seems like a really heartbreaking “what if” story that I enjoy listening to. I don’t necessarily relate to it but I think it’s fun to see her aspect of it.
Erin: My initial favorite when I was halfway through the album was “my tears ricochet” because I love Jack Antonoff, I think he’s a great producer, and he worked on that song and a couple others. I thought that was fun and Taylor Swift, she does drama so well. No one is dramatic like Taylor Swift is, in a fun way. “If I’m dead to you/why are you at the wake,” that’s a crazy thing to say! But it works for her. She can say it and not sound crazy. But my all time favorite is “august.” I love big songs, I love a big, sweeping song. It’s a little nostalgic, I think it’s very impressive when a song captures nostalgia now. When I listen to a song that came out two days ago and it makes me nostalgic for high school, that’s crazy that someone can put a whole emotion into sound and I think it’s a very impressive feat.
Dagny: She does nostalgia really well.
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Erin: We sort of touched on this earlier but if you were a producer and you were handed this album and they said you could make any changes you want, would you change the order of anything? Would you make a different opening and closing track?
Camille: I don’t think I would change anything, I think the opening and closing songs are really strong. Maybe I just haven’t listened to the album enough times yet but I don’t think there’s anything I would make changes to.
Eunice: I agree with that, I think that Taylor Swift specifically sequenced the album, a lot of thought was put into it so I don’t know if I would want to change it. I think track 7 is called “seven” right?
Erin: Oh I LOVE that. Billie Eilish did that on her album too, I think it’s great.
Eunice: I know she definitely put a lot of thought into the titles and how that matches up with the sequencing. I think it’s really smart how she put everything together and I wouldn’t want to mess with that.
Camille: I feel like it’s already in a perfect order, I wouldn’t want to touch it.
Dagny: I don’t know if this is relevant but I don’t like the name of the album.
Erin: “folklore?” That’s interesting!
Dagny: It turns me off.
Erin: I agree, I was expecting it to be a lot more mystical than it was. I was very much expecting stories, and if you saw the vertical videos on Spotify they were sort of mystical. But I agree it’s not 100% relevant to the content. It’s not a bad album title, but I think there were more relevant album titles. What would you have named it? Would you have chosen a track to be the title track?
Dagny: Probably not, I think only some people do that well. The title track has to be like so good but even then it ends up being overplayed. So not a name of a song but I think she’s good at coming up with these creative little… I liked the name “mirrorball” a lot. I don’t think that should’ve been the title but I think she’s good at coming up with these interesting words and phrases. “folklore” just didn’t do it for me.
Erin: Yeah now that you say that I don’t know if I like the album title either. I really like the album cover, if she hadn’t already used “Out Of The Woods” as a previous song title it would’ve been a good album title.
Dagny: We should let her know.
Erin: I’ll tell her to take it off 1989, she doesn’t need it. I don’t know if I’d change the sequencing. For a while I thought with the whole Betty, James, Inez love triangle should those three songs have been next to each other? But I think they’re actually spaced equidistantly and maybe it’s nice that they’re spread out. I also like that it was a surprise because what single would you have dropped from this album? There’s no single off this album that gets people pumped. Which is fine I don’t think it needs to get people pumped. But it’s like Fiona Apple when she dropped Fetch The Bolt Cutters, like what single would she have dropped from that?
Dagny: I never would’ve thought of that but I cannot think of one [single] that would’ve worked.
Erin: You could’ve maybe done “august” because it’s very sweeping, but there’s so many songs you couldn't have done. Maybe “exile” because there’s a feature.
Camille: That’d make the most sense. One thing about the surprise part that was really exciting was that every song topped the charts. Like the top 50 on Spotify, 1-16 was just her.
Erin: Oh because people had to buy the whole album because there were no singles! Genius!
Camille: It was amazing to see her impact, like she had just talked about releasing an album the day before and she’s breaking records. I think that was really impactful that she was able to do that, even if she doesn’t draw out this album and plan it months before it can still be really successful.
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Erin: If we look back at Taylor Swift’s discography, I think no artist has reinvented themselves as continuously and successfully as Taylor Swift. Usually when people reinvent themselves genre-wise, their fans flip out. I grew up a really big Tegan and Sara fan and I remember when they went pop, people lost their minds in a very negative way. I think [Taylor] does it very successfully, but I think we can always look back and see clues. So are there any hints of folklore, maybe in the late three but I can definitely think of a few songs.
Dagny: Which ones would you say?
Erin:. I am of the mind that “All Too Well” is her best song so I think that could work because it’s a big ballad. Reworked versions of these, but the song “the last great american dynasty” sort of reminds me of that song “Miss Americana & The Heartbreak Prince” from Lover. I think a reworked version of “Getaway Car” from reputation. A reworked version of “I Know Places” from 1989.
Dagny: I think “The Archer.”
Eunice: I think “Cornelius Street,” it’s got the storytelling.
Camille: “Daylight,” the storytelling and the lyrics.
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I was thinking about this, not even on Top 40 because I think it’s all different, but who are Taylor Swift’s peers? Does she have any? Like recommended if you like, but are Taylor Swift’s recommended if you like based on similar songwriting or the fact that they both get played on pop radio?
Dagny: (reading from Spotify RIYL) It’s like Selena Gomez, Miley Cyrus, Demi Lovato. You’re right with that question, I don’t associate them so much.
Erin: Yeah, like is Miley Cyrus really her peer? Because Miley, not that any one artist has more or less artistic merit, but Miley Cyrus releases music like Miley Cyrus and Her Dead Petz, does that make them peers just because they’re blondes who get played on radio?
Camille: I think that’s more why they’re grouped together, because they’re icons. I don’t think it’s about the music, it's about their popularity and who they are. I don’t think it has to do with genre, it's just their popularity.
Eunice: Yeah and they’ve been popular for a long time too. Like the top three on those recommended, Selena, Miley, and Demi Lovato have been around for a while and we grew up watching and listening to them which is why we associate their names together.
Camille: It makes sense that we associate them with each other.
Erin: And three out of four of those people were on TV at the same time.
Dagny: It’s also strange, if you were to look at so many other smaller artists, the recommendations are so much more related.
Erin: The first one that popped into my head is the Snail Mail recommended artists, and it’s very much her sound. People are very quick to generalize in pop more so than other genres. People don’t respect subgenres in pop as much as they do in, say, punk.
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Erin: Okay if you worked at Pitchfork for example, someone dropped this album across your desk, what’s your review? Like a snappy couple sentences and what out of 10 would you give it? You can use decimals.
Dagny: I’m gonna give it an 8.5. Many of those points are due to the phenomenal storytelling capabilities she displays in this album and the quality of the production, and some points were taken off because I think some of the hype might subconsciously just be about the change in tone for her.
Camille: I would give it an 8 for that reason as well. It may be a bit unfair but it was still a great album overall. I think the lyrics and the way the stories and visuals and aesthetic of it was very well done but it did take away from some other artists. Also the album title like we were talking about before. But overall it’s an excellent, outstanding album. I love it.
Eunice: I would also give it an 8. The entire experience was very immersive, the entire album takes you right back to high school and just suburban vibes. And the entire emotion the album evokes is very unique, definitely opens the world to more indie genres because I think her audience is very poppy. It gives her audience a different type of experience.
Erin: I’m gonna give it a 7.8. I know that’s dumb but I’m going to. I took off a little bit because, sometimes this is nice when you’re just listening, but on my first listen there were a couple times where I didn’t realize one song had ended and another one had started. Maybe it should’ve been broken up more, I want every song to feel very intentional. Like we talked about, the genre shift not being recognized for others as much, the title could've been better. But to her merit I think it’s a very successful album, I think it’s her best personally. I hope she feels good about it because she should.
The quotes in this article have been edited for clarity.
-Image and Video Credit-
Thumbnail Image: Beth Garrabrant
Video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xGvCApIEQY
Video 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TAPqXkZW_I
Image 1: RCA/SONY
Image 2: Rodrigo Prieto
Image 3: Beth Garrabrant